Former Fundamentalists: king james

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Bible a Dangerous Moral Guide?

From: Ed Babinski
To: Jen
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: "The Bible a Dangerous Moral Guide"

ED: Jen, Please see my replies, interspersed within your email below.

From: Jen
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 8:44 PM
Subject: "The Bible a Dangerous Moral Guide"

Hello,

ED: Hello, pleased to meet you.

I, as a born-again Christian, have to say that this article takes everything it quotes from the Bible out of context on top of the fact that it is using the wrong translation.

ED: I did not write the article in question, a former minister did, and that minister died in the first half of the 1900s.. In my own discussions I use the King James almost all of the time, since some Christians read nothing else but the King James, and it's also not copyrighted, so it's free to use.

On part of that slavery thing, I do not agree with slavery, and it is not taught in the Bible. To make your point you should have used the version of the Bible (the true version) that the people were using at that time, which is the KJV Bible.

ED: Whether or not "slavery is taught in the Bible" was the very question that split America's Baptist, Methodist and Presbyterian denominations in two right before the Civil War. Major theologians on both sides debated this question and could not arrive at an answer from the Bible that they all could agree upon, instead splitting their denominations right down the middle. Today, most scholars agree, like Mark Nolls of Wheaton College and author of America's God (read the chapters on the slavery debate amongst churches back then), that the Southern ministers had a greater prima facia case in favor of slavery that the Northern ministers did against it. The Bible never declares slavery to be a sin. It says it is O.K. for Israel to buy slaves from the nations around you.

People who were pro-slavery used the passages out of context. They took the mark of Cain in Genesis to be that Cain became black, but as the Bible clearly shows that all of Cain's descendants were destroyed in the flood, this cannot be. The Hebrew slave thing, in context is teaching that if someone owes you something, and cannot pay you back, he can work to pay you back for a set amount of time. The year of jubilee also requires all slaves are free. That is only one of the issues that the author has misrepresented.

ED: Actually, "the mark of Cain" is far off the mark concerning the slavery question. Though some verses in Genesis were used to support slavery, verses that mentioned "the curse of Ham," whose descendants (via one of Ham's sons) were allegedly "cursed by Noah" to be the "servants of servants" (or "slaves of slaves") for eternity. The history of how those "cursed" descendants came to be identified with the Black race is interesting -- there are books on that topic. But that was not the only reason why Bible scholars in the South defended the right to own slaves. There are plenty of other verses that mention the everlasting practice of slavery.

Concerning the "year of jubilee," it only refers to HEBREW slaves. And even then it only included the freeing of MALE Hebrew slaves, the females remained slaves as did any children the females bore. And a male slave must speak up the first time freedom is offered and take it, otherwise his ear was pierced with an awl and he remained a slave for life. I suggest you read something that I wrote on the Bible and slavery, it contains the verses concerning such matters and it is far more complete than the short essay by the former minister that you read:

"Jesus' Wide and Profound Effect Upon Humanity"

Another thing he misrepresented is that he says the Bible is incorrect scientifically? How can this be if it was written way before scientists knew many things? For instance, Leviticus 17:11 says that the life of the flesh is in the blood, and it took scientists many years to discover this.

ED: Ancient peoples all agreed that the pounding heart and racing blood (and loss thereof) caused the loss of life, along with the loss of one's "breath" that also ended at death. In other words, science was not needed in order to draw attention to the blood and the heart and the breath, all of which were viewed by the ancients as belonging to "life." So the Bible merely reflects that ancient view, not modern scientific views. What science eventually did was to explore that quiet organ, THE BRAIN, and understand it's necessity for the "life" of people's emotions and decision-making abilities, and also to run all the other organs, via the nervous system. The Bible authors were ignorant of the primacy of the "brain and nervous system," and hence the Bible does not draw any concerted attention to the brain, but instead mimics the old ancient pre-scientific ways of envisioning "life" as being directed by the "heart," depending on the "blood" and "breath," not to forget the fact that the Biblical authors also believed that other organs also "directed" human being, like the "kidneys and bowels":

Here are some of the verses in the King James Bible in which the Greek and Hebrew terms for bowels and kidneys are literally translated:

My bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the Lord Jer. 31:20.
Be ye straitened [restrained] in your own bowels 2 Cor. 6:12.
I long after you in the bowels [affection] of Christ Philip. 1:8.
(T)he bowels of the saints are refreshed.... (R)efresh my bowels in the Lord Philemon 7:20.
(S)hutteth up his bowels of compassion 1 John 3:17.
Thus my heart was grieved, and I was pricked in my reins [Latin, renes, which means kidneys, a literal translation of the Hebrew] Ps. 73:21.
My reins [kidneys] also instruct me in the night seasons Ps. 16:7.
Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the heart and reins [kidneys] Ps. 7:9.
Yea, my reins [kidneys] shall rejoice when my lips speak right things Prov. 23:16.
I am He [God] which searcheth the reins [kidneys] and hearts Rev. 2:23.

The Talmud (Berakhoth 61a) says that one kidney prompts man to do good, the other to do evil. The kidneys (among other organs, yet excluding the brain) were especially reserved for Yahweh and sacrificed to Him as a burnt offering Lev. 3:4-5. Even if the Hebrews regarded this insight into the kidneys as "pure poetry" (which is doubtful, based on historical comparisons, and since figures of speech have to originate from ideas), it is a poetry that no longer survives or interests mankind. In fact, in the above verses the Hebrew word for kidneys has been translated soul in modern English Bibles to avoid cumbersome explanations of why the ancient Hebrews attributed moral significance to a person's kidneys.

Also, the Bible says that the earth is a sphere (a circle, in other words) and it took many years for scientists to figure this out, too.

ED: The Bible says no such thing. It says circle. No translator at all ever has translated that word as "sphere." And in fact, read the context of that verse in Isa. It describes heaven as a "tent," not a spherical image at all. Furthermore, the Bible never says the earth moves. Never. Except during an "earthquake" when both heaven and earth are moved out of their places.

There are other facts that the Bible said before they were even discovered. This proves that it is written by God using "holy men of God" to write it as well as that it is infallible.

ED: It proves no such thing. See my replies above.

This is all I have time to deal with right this moment since I have toget ready to prepare for our Christmas performance at church to glorify God through my instrument. I await your reply. I would be much interested to see if you can disprove what I have said.

ED: There are disproofs to what you have said. The question is whether or not you will continue to read and learn more about the Bible and it's all-too-human failings. That does not mean you need to become an atheist! There is still a huge middle ground of various options that lay between atheism and inerrancy of the Bible.

Jen

P.S. Another thing I noticed is that you never really dealt with your title, as well as, if the Bible is not God's word, the why do you capitalize Bible and Scripture? JG

ED: I did not write that article. "Bible" is capitalized when referring to either the Jewish or Christian Bible. Though the word "bible" does simply mean literally a collection of books. There is after all, a Hunter's Bible, and other sorts of bibles out there. Scripture is also capitalized for the same reason, when referring to the particular scriptures (literally the word scripture means simply, "writings") of a particular religious tradition.

Pentecostals and Tongue-Speaking

PENTECOSTALS
One summer night Louie and Mel set to over the issue of speaking in tongues, Louie arguing that this manifestation of the Spirit was to be sought earnestly, Mel holding that it was a miraculous gift given to the early church but not given by God today. I forget the Scripture verses each of them brought forward to defend his position, but I remember the pale faces, the throat-clearing, the anguished looks, as those two voices went back and forth, straining at the bit, giving no ground - the poisoned courtesy ("I think my brother is overlooking Paul's very clear message to the Corinthians?," "Perhaps my brother needs to take a closer look, a prayerful look, at this verse in Hebrews?") as the sun went down, neighbor children were called indoors, the neighbors turned out their lights, eleven o'clock came - they wouldn't stop!

"Perhaps," Grandpa offered, "it would be meet for us to pray for the Spirit to lead us," hoping to adjourn, but both Louie and Mel felt that the Spirit had led, that the Spirit had written the truth in big black letters - if only some people could see it.

The thought of Uncle Louie speaking in tongues was fascinating to me. Uncle Louie worked at the bank, he spoke to me mostly about thrift and hard work. What tongue would he speak? Spanish? French? Or would it sound like gibberish? Louie said that speaking in tongues was the true sign, that those who believed heard and to those who didn't it was only gabble - what if he stood up and said, "Feemalator, jasperator, hoo ha ha, Wamalamagamanama, zis boom bah!" and everyone else said, "Amen! That's right, brother! Praise God!" and I was the only one who said, "Huh?"
- Garrison Keillor, "Protestant," Lake Woebegon Days

For the last 20 years, between 7 and 9 percent of Americans have spoken in tongues - but almost the same percentage said the practice is evidence of demonic possession.
- Bernard Katz, "Quoteline and Commentaries," The American Rationalist, July/Aug. 1998

Michael Trofimov pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity in the murder of his father. Trofimov, who had recently joined a religious group, was found was his hands around his father's neck "speaking in tongues and screaming for God." His uncle said, "He was a good young man and then he started going to these [religious] meetings."
- Chuck Shepherd, John J. Kohut & Roland Sweet, More News of the Weird (1990)

True story: A young Pentecostal girl dared her girlfriend in church to shout out some nonsense syllables just to see if someone would stand up and "interpret the tongue." So the girl shouted, "coca-cola, coca-cola, coca-cola" and a church member promptly stood up and "interpreted the tongue" as a message from God.

Years later, I read that when the Coca-Cola company tried selling their brew in China, they discovered that the Chinese symbols that were pronounced, "Coca-Cola," meant literally, "Bite the wax tadpole." So maybe you can get a "message" out of "coca-cola, coca-cola, coca-cola," albeit a stuttering and meaningless one.
- Skip Church

As a former tongue-speaking Christian it wasn't the repetitive nature of many of the syllables I spoke that raised doubts. It was the fact that people in our group would sometimes "speak in tongues" a long time yet the "interpretation" could be quite brief. Or they would "speak in tongues" briefly and the "interpretation" came out long-winded. Folks who loved the King James Bible "interpreted tongues" in King James English, while those who loved other translations of the Bible delivered less Elizabethan-sounding "interpretations." And the messages received via this miraculous discourse were as trifling as the simplest cares and woes found in the Psalms with which everyone in the congregation was familiar - as if God didn't have anything more relevant or specific to say to us. Yet it seemed to me that if God was going to give people miraculous linguistic abilities, He'd have found far better uses to put them to.
- Skip Church

CONVERSATION ON THE "EX-TIAN" LISTSERV:
Rob Berry: I've heard that a trained listener can tell the difference between a New Yorker and a Southerner speaking in tongues, so the "tongues" spoken by an individual reflect the normal language of that individual. And a Japanese person speaking in tongues is not going to have any "L"s in their babbling.

David O. Miller: Actually this is true only for those Japanese who have never studied English. Those who have, consistantry have "L"s whele the "R"s berong and "R"s whele the "L"s berong. And that could totally change the meaning of the babbling couldn't it? Obviously, "uga-bali-raka-fulu" and "uga-bari-laka-furu" are two entirely different things, right?

I used to speak in tongues, but now it only comes in handy when I'm performing cunnilingus.
- Skip Church

Loresa Goodly filed a lawsuit in Lafayette Parish, Louisiana, in November for injuries she incurred just after she had received the Holy Spirit at a tent revival meeting and passed out on the floor. Moments later, another woman received the Holy Spirit and fell on top of Goodly before ushers could catch her, breaking three of Goodly's ribs.
- Baton Rouge Morning Advocate, Nov. 18, 1995

After different occurrences of televangelist Benny Hinn's famous antic "slaying in the Spirit," during which crowds of people fall over, one young girl's leg was badly injured and an elderly woman died from complications following a broken hip. Her family sued for $15 million; Hinn settled out of court for an undisclosed amount.

Hinn has been fooled more than once during his crusades by hired actors who pretended to be handicapped, then pretended to be healed - despite Hinn's past promises not to televise healings until they had been medically confirmed.

Other people who really were sick had been pronounced healed and were televised as such. Reporters discovered, in case after case, that no one followed up on them and that none of them had really been healed. This included a half-dozen AIDS patients, several deaf or blind children, a quadriplegic teen and a woman with cancer, who quit her chemotherapy and died two months later. Reporters could not find a single verifiable healing, although in one chilling interview, a woman with multiple sclerosis serenely announced that she had discontinued her medication because she believed, thanks to Hinn, that her healing would arrive at any moment.

Hinn has also claimed -- each time on record -- that :

He conducted services in a hospital overseas and healed so many people the place nearly shut down (a reporter checked up on this and the hospital categorically denied it).

Someone videotaped him raising a man from the dead in Guyana (this was also refuted and ultimately retracted by a ministry spokesman).
- Information drawn from "The Many Faces of Benny Hinn" (a video and book of the same title that summarizes a host of investigative reports on Benny Hinn), produced by The Door Magazine. "Even the most credulous, faithful followers of Benny Hinn would be hard-pressed to explain why so many national TV newsmagazines and local stations, from Chicago to Orlando to Dallas to Sydney, Australia, keep uncovering the same damning facts year after year."
- Gregg Hartman (www.christianhumor.about.com) See also Matthew Barry, "Adventures in Faith Healing," Freethought Today, March, 1998 http://www.ffrf.org/

Police in Vinton, Louisiana were surprised when a driver wearing only a towel got out of a car, then got back in and sped off. They were dumbfounded when the car hit a tree and disgorged 20 people wearing nothing at all. There were fifteen adults in the interior of the 1990 Pontiac Grand Am and five children in the trunk. The driver of the car, Sammy Rodriguez and his brother, Danny, both said they were Pentecostal preachers. They made statements that the devil was after them. And their hometown, Floydada, Texas, was going to be destroyed if they stayed there. They fled Floydada in five cars, but wound up abandoning four of them, along with the family's clothes, pocketbooks, wallets and other belongings because "the devil" had "gotten into those things."
- Associated Press, "Cops Chase Car With 20 Naked Passengers," Aug. 20, 1993

An unemployed maid and mother of seven burned a winning $60,000 lottery ticket because her minister at an Assembly of God church in Fortaleza, Brazil, said her plane would "sink in sin in hell" if she went to claim the prize money. "Destroy the ticket - the devil's work - to save yourself from hellfire," Preacher Wagner said, as the congregation chanted, "Burn, burn, burn." So Maria Banoiza Nascimento returned to her one-room shack (where she lived with her unemployed husband and her four seriously ill children), and burned the ticket. Then, for good measure, she burned her identification card and her children's birth certificates as well.
- Associated Press, 1995

He seemed to be one of those people, so many of whom gravitate to Pentecostal sects who move around the West and the South and the Border States and continue to receive information only through the most tenuous chains of rumor, hearsay, haphazard trickledown. To an astonishing extent they keep themselves unviolated by common knowledge, by the ability to make routine assumptions.
- Joan Didion, The White Album

A devotee on her knees in some abysmal and mysterious cathedral while solemn music echoes, and clouds of incense come down the wind, and priests in luxurious, operatic costumes busy themselves with stately ceremonials in a dead and not too respectable language - this is unquestionably beautiful, particularly if the devotee herself is attractive. But the same devotee aroused to hysterical protestations of faith by the shrieks and contortions of a Pentecostal preacher, her knees trembling with the fear of God, her hands clenched as if to do combat with Beelzebub, her lips discharging hosannas and hallelujahs - this is merely obscene.
- H. L. Mencken, A Mencken Chrestomathy