DOUG: Hi i need to clarify how when the Lord comes with all His saints in Jude 14-15, do you think that is the day of judgment as written in Rom 2:16 "when the God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel". Plus could you tell me if you consider that Math 13:46-51 , 25:31. John 5:28-29 Rev 20:11 are all the same judgment. Then, are the saints of Ist Cor 6:1-3 the same as the "judgment was committed to them" of Rev 20:4 and Math 19:28 you who have folowed me will sit in 12 thrones judging 12 tribes of Israel. And of course Rom 2:16 and Jude 14-15 , Ps 149:9, Zec 14:6 Hope you can shed some light on these judgments and apparent judges.
Bless you,
Doug B.
ED: Dear Doug, Thanks for writing. Concerning your questions, I do not view the Bible as an inerrant heavenly puzzle book such that you can catalog and clearly define every reference to "judgments" and "judges" and fit each reference together in a tale of dogmatic, theological, and mathematical precision. Even inerrantist Bible believers disagree as to how many judgments the Bible speaks of, how many resurrections, even how many raptures. And there are dispensationalists and preterists who disagree on the "real" or "metaphorical" meanings of various descriptions of judgment, or whether such descriptions apply to the entire earth or only to the desctruction of one city on earth. Concerning such debate among Christians see:
InterVarsity Press:
Four Theologians Debate the Major Millennial Views
And Zondervan Press, Counterpoints Series:
Three Views on the Rapture
Three Views on the Millennium and Beyond
Four Views on the Book of Revelation
According to the modern historical approach to the Bible, the Bible is a book made up of many books, each of which is related individually to the times in which it was written and to the literature and ideas of its age. When the book of Jude was written, the book of Enoch was still popular. The "judgment" mentioned in the book of Jude (14-15) is actually a citation from Enoch 1:9, an intertestamental work:
Jude 14-15: 14Now Enoch, who lived seven generations after Adam, prophesied about these people. He said, "Look, the Lord is coming with thousands of his holy ones. 15He will bring the people of the world to judgment. He will convict the ungodly of all the evil things they have done in rebellion and of all the insults that godless sinners have spoken against him."
The quotation comes from the Apocrypha: Enoch 1:9.
I highly recommend the study of intertestamental works in order to understand N.T. apocalyptic passages in their historical perspective. The Encyclopedia of Apocalypticism (2 vols.) by Stephen J. Stein (Editor) and John Joseph Collins is the best starting point I know. The article in by Collins is a "must read" overview of the topic. It is evident that the nearness of a final judgment of the entire earth was a view held by some before Jesus' day (including a prediction in the Dead Sea Scrolls of the earth's final judgment within a generation of the death of the "Teacher of Righteousness").
Cheers,
Ed
Doug, You may also want to read my replies at my website to someone who asked me about the Bible's end times prophecies compared with modern history.
And see my online article, "The Lowdown on God's Showdown"
Cheers,
Ed
From: Ed Babinski
To: Doug B.
Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004
Subject: Re: The Book of Enoch, a pseudepigraph (written under the pseudonymn of "Enoch
Doug B. writes:
Hi Ed , thank you so much for your lenghty and very interesting article on Enoch, marvellous.
Ed you touched on the expression "sons of God' as either angelic or sons of Seth, from that would you have an opinion(probably already documented, by that I mean I am sure you have) on the "Sons of God" of Hosea 1:10/Rom 9:24/Gal 3:26, now I know the Sons of God are the church, but could they relate to a position similar to the Genisis "sons of God'. Making us divine, possibly?.
ED: There are currently about nine different interpretations of the "sons of God" mentioned in Genesis. The words, "sons of God" are so general they have found usage and applications by different Bible writers, who wrote at different times, of different things. I don't think is there any one way to sum them up in any single easy fashion, just as I think it's impossible to try and get every different interpreter of the term, "sons of God" in Genesis to finally agree.
If you are interested in different opinions concerning the "sons of God" in Genesis, the NIV APPLICATION COMMENTARY ON GENESIS (2002) by Watson at Wheaton College, provides a summation of some of the major views. That commentary is an excellent read for a variety of reasons, check it out when you have the time. Watson acknowledges the original Hebrew meanings and original context of Genesis, as all scholars today must, but adds of course, his own "bridging concepts" to try and bring modern scholarship in line with 3rd century orthodox Christian interpretations of Genesis. It's an interesting attempt at being honest and also orthodox. I think his attempt fails, since his bridging concepts are really an example of "fudge factors" to try and bring his data in line with his orthodox Christian conclusions. But at least he has indeed presented the original Hebrew concepts and ideas of Genesis to the Evangelical public, including the flat earth, the firm firmament, no mention of Satan in Genesis, nor any inference that the serpent was nothing but evil (a crafty beast, a trickster, but not evil).
Besides the above commentary I suggest the following website for a scholarly list of different interpretations of the "sons of God" in Genesis.
Or, is God just relating to us a separation of Israel as , "daughters of Zion/Jerusaelm", from the, "Church/body of Christ/Sons of God", giving a feminine role to Israel and a male role to us.
Israel as daughters and us as Sons.
ED: I would suggest getting your hands on the Anchor Bible Commentary volume on Hosea, for a fleshing out of that book's historical context and what Hosea was most likely trying to get across to his readers. The Anchor Bible Commentaries are some of the most in-depth available.
THE WEBSITE BELOW WAS CREATED BY A LIBRARIAN/THEOLOGIAN, WHO COLLECTED AND ARRANGED THE PREMIER SCHOLARLY RELIGIOUS URLS INTO HANDY CATEGORIES FOR EASE OF USE:
Wabash Center
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