Jehovah Witness Debate
by Edward T. Babinski and Alfonso W.
From: alfonzo w
To: edwardtbabinski.us
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 1:24 PM
Subject: DEBATE BAPTIST VS JEHOVAHS WITNESS
MR BABINSKI,
SIR I RECIEVED THE FOLLOWING EMAIL AS A RESPONSE TO A DEBATE MY QUESTION IS DID YOU RESPOND OR SOMEONE ELSE WHO IS Kenneth Nahigian? HERE IS THE EMAIL: ALSO (MR HOLLANDS) VERSION OF THE DEBATE COULD YOU TAKE A LOOK AT THE NEW REDACTED VERSION
ALSO I WOULD LIKE TO DEBATE YOU ABOUT WHY I KNOW NOT THINK, NOT JUST HOPE , THAT "GOD EXISTS"
THANKS
AL W.
"Kenneth Nahigian" writes:
Ed, would you like to help out these guys? (In your copious spare time, of course!)
- Ken
JW versus a Baptist? Please forward these email comments to them!
Hmmm, I might tell the Baptist that it's difficult to find in the synoptics anything like the verses in the Fourth Gospel concerning the "divinity" of Jesus (even the "logos" concept doesn't necessarily refer to the word of God being a "third" of "God" but the logos is merely an extension of God, his divine "word," but that "word" or logos alone is not equal to "God" in all ways, it's just God's "word" -- such was the understanding of the Hebrew Hellenistic scholar Philo when he wrote of "the Logos" about a generation before the N.T. was written. In similar fashion, the Fourth Gospel also contains other verses that continue to distinguish between Jesus and God). I'd also ask the Baptist to read a chapter of the online book, BEYOND BORN AGAIN, the chapter that discusses "proof verses" of Jesus' divinity.
Personally, I like it when Bible believers of various denominations and sects argue with each other. That's the way it should be. In fact, I'd like nothing more than to produce a website someday that pitted Christians against Christians, for instance, geocentrists against heliocentrists, old-earth creationists versus young-earth creationists, Dispensationalists versus Preterists, etc. I mean it's THEIR "holy book," and they all claim it's "inerrant" and not liable to anyone's indivudual interpretation, and they all claim to be guided into all truth by the same Holy Spirit, just as their "holy book" promises, so let THEM duke it out, and if they don't come to any firm conclusions and can't convince all the rest of their fellow inerrantists that "the Bible sez" the earth goes round the sun (or vice versa), or that it's billions of years old (or only thousands), then I say to heck with them. They really need to get their shit together, I'm sick of trying to do it for them. So, a website that puts forth that challenge that I have just stated and then lists major old-earth creationist sites and major young-earth sites, and geocentrist sites, and Dispensationalism and Preterism sites, etc., and let them tear and rend Scripture till the cows come home and they still can't agree. And rub their noses in it. I mean, if fellow Evangelicals can't agree on what "the Bible sez," even with a perfect book and the Holy Spirit "leading them into all truth," then what's the point of even CLAIMING you have a perfect book and a spirit that leads you into all truth? Make the claim and then demonstrate to me how this "perfect book" and it's interpretation works in practice with fellow believers. 2000 years of Christian history demonstrates without a doubt that it DOES NOT WORK. That would be the basis for a cool little website in my opinion.
And then I can get along with my own life, or just keep advertizing that website in every Christian discussion group on the internet. Let the Jehovah's Witnesses and Armstrong's Church of God, and Mormons be listed at the site too, let them all rend and tear at each other, damning each other to hell or soul extinction or whatever they happen to believe they are damning each other to. *smile*
There's lots of categories of differences too, not just creation evolution. Heck, there's articles on how long a man's hair should be. There's various Christians colleges with rules that other Christian colleges disagree with.
And let's not forget to get the moderates and liberal Christians involved too. That liberal Anglican minister, Bishop Spong, has his own site now. Let them all have at it. And I'll ask at the end of my site just how many of all these questions have been settled based on interpreting the Bible alone with the help of the Holy Spirit. *smile*
Best,
From: "ed babinski"
To: alfonzo w
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 12:19 PM
Subject: Dear Al, thanks for the invitation to a debate
Dear Al,
Kenneth Nahigian is an old friend of mine and a former fundamentalist Christian like myself.
I am not personally interested in a debate right now. The internet is filled with debates (I am happy about that, seeing so much information being shared and swapped so openly and easily) , and the Jehovah's Witness belief system interests me very little. I have read books by several former Jehovah's Witnesses like THIRTY YEARS A WATCHTOWER SLAVE, and, A CASE OF CONSCIENCE, the latter book being far more thorough than the former. And I cannot buy that Charles Taz Russell uncovered the one true interpretation of the Bible anymore than I can buy that Athanasius and the Catholics did, or Luther and the Protestants did. And of course, neither can I buy that God keeps things "secrets" for millennia until he reveals them to only one poor soul, while people perished in ignorance and darkness concerning the truth during all that time previous to such a revelation. In fact, I don't think one's beliefs about God or the Trinity matter one way or the other. And as for you "knowing" that God exists, I am sure there are people of many different faiths who feel and argue the same way, I know. I have heard from them all.
Best, Ed
Jehovah Witness Doctrines : Prophecy, Biblical Flat Earth and Serpent Handling
by Edward T. Babinski
Jehovah Witnesses need to simply read more, debate their own beliefs in their own mind after reading more. That's the only way to see things in a broader fashion, because converting others is easy, converting yourself is difficult.
Here's a list that they could get at amazon.com if they took the trouble to simply type in Jehovah's Witness in their book search engine.
The people who wrote these books were often former JWs.
1) Crisis of Conscience -- Raymond Franz, Commentary Press (Franz's book is cool because he writes in a very dry and composed style and even includes photocopies of original JW documents to verify what he says. Written by former Governing Body member Ray Franz. Ray Franz was responsible for the writing and editing of many WT Publications, including the Aid Book. Seven years before the above book he also wrote, In Search of Christian Freedom. )
2) M. James Penton's Apocalypse Delayed: The Story of Jehovah's Witnesses, a history of the movement that seeks not just to discredit and refute the Watchtower, but to understand it.
3) Awakening of a Jehovah's Witness: Escape from the Watchtower Society -- Diane Wilson
4) The Gentile Times Reconsidered: Chronology & Christ's Return by Carl Olof Jonsson (Introduction) (Paperback - July 1998) An extremely important work that goes into the history of the Watchtower's 1914 Chronology. Was Jerusalem really destroyed in 607 like the Society says? Or was it 586/587, like all historians say?
There are also booklists at amazon.com composed by former Jehovah's witnesses, from which I obtained the above titles:
Good Books for Jehovah's Witnesses: A list by Kelly J Brazil, Former Ministerial Servant
Good Ideas for Jehovah's Witnesses: A list by immanence, Former Ministerial Servant
Of course, you're going to find reviews for these four books that range from "great!" to only one-star. The folks who gave it one star are JWs who dislike that an apostate dares to publish an account of their religious journey out of the JW fold. (Much like the one-star reviews of my book, LEAVING THE FOLD, left by fundie Protestants who most likely have only skimmed its 400+ pages.)
I say, that if anyone is going to boast that their faith is the one and true faith in the world, and yet haven't read at least the few books above, written by people who "lost" that same faith, then THEY need to.
I know all about being "in" the fundie Protestant fold, I was there, I read pro-testimony books galore. But I simply ask people who were once like me to consider reading testimony books of people who had the same faith they did, like this JW, and yet who journeyed out of it. If they don't read them to broaden their understanding of others, then they will truly never understand people who do leave the JW fold. Even if after reading such books they remain JWs, that's O.K. too, because at least they will learn more and understand more about people who have undergone changes that to them would be like tearing their own heart out, and perhaps by reading such things they may gain a bit more respect for other people's experiences and points of view rather than knocking on doors and boasting to strangers how much they know about God, Jesus, the end of the world and the afterlife. Amen. My sermon is ended, go in peace. Take and read the above four books.
Also Witnesses can visit the Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum / Watchers of the Watchtower World.
Best, Ed
MR BABINSKI SAYS JWs SHOULD READ APOSTATE INFO, AS A JEHOVAHS WITNESS, I THINK NOT!!
A Jehovah Witness wrote:
1 John 2 SAYS:
1 John 2 :: New Living Translation
These people left our churches because they never really belonged with us; otherwise they would have stayed with us. When they left us, it proved that they do not belong with us. But you are not like that, for the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and all of you know the truth. So I am writing to you not because you don't know the truth but because you know the difference between truth and falsehood.
MR BABINSKI SAYS HOWEVER:
WE SHOULD READ THIS TYPE OF LITERARY JOURNALS, OF APOSTATES,OR HOW THE APOSTLE JOHN CALLS FROM HIS GRAVE:
These people left our churches because they never really belonged with us
SO THEN WHO DO THEY BELONG TO
TWO CHOICES
(1) TO GOD
(2) THE DEVIL
WHO WOULD YOU SAY?
Ed Babinski: Dear Winternatt,
If you've got the one true faith, what could reading a few harmless books do to you? Don't you see that you need precisely this kind of reading the MOST because the books are by people who went to the JW church like you, know the church doctrines like you? That's the most interesting and challenging type of reading, and if God gave you a mind, I don't think he intended it to ignore challenges. Do you think reading such books will "offend God?" Is that it? That you're wasting time reading them, when what you want are piable minds of people who have never been JWs before?
Is that what you're looking to spend your time on, on people who know less about the JW religion than you do? Wow, you're really shooting high there! Or would you rather read folks who know as much as you do about the JW religion, who have lived and practiced it themselves and studied it as deeply as you have, either very nearly as deeply, or more deeply in some instances? I say, read those few books, write their authors. Be challenged. Even if neither of you convert the other, at least you have faced your fiercest demons, and maybe learned something in the process about your fellow human beings. And it's only a few books. Quit getting upset, it's not like I asked you to read the Encyclopedia Britannica.
When I was a fundamentalist Christian I read maybe 100 or more books written by evangelical Christians and for evangelical Christians, books of testimonies, inspiration, interpretation, apologetics, novels, etc. I read Lewis, Schaeffer, Chesteron, Williams, McDowell, and others. I still pick up Christian books and read from them, even today. So you are telling me that you don't have the guts, nor the intellectual curiosity or chutzpa, to read less than a handful of books by former JWs?
Best, Ed
Hello MR BABINSKI
Im honored sir to finally engage in dialogue with you. As you know im the one who challenged you several weeks ago to a debate ,which you declined,i meanwhile i have posted several responses in this forum.
As to the reading" books" by ex-witnesses here is my thoughts bu example.
"If, out of curiosity, we were to read the literature of a known "apostate", would that not be the same as inviting this enemy of true worship right into our home to sit down with us and relate his apostate ideas? Let us illustrate matters in this way: Suppose your teenage son received some pornographic material in the mail. What would you do? If he was inclined to read it out of curiosity, would you say: `Yes, son, go ahead and read it. It won't hurt you. From infancy we've taught you that immorality is bad. Besides, you need to know what's going on in the world in order to see that it's truly bad'? Absolutely not! Rather, you would surely point out the dangers of reading pornographic literature and would require that it be destroyed. Why? Because no matter how strong a person may be in the truth, if he feeds his mind on the perverted ideas found in such literature, his mind and heart will be effected...Well, if we would act so decisively to protect our children from exposure to pornography, should we not expect that our loving heavenly Father would similarly warn us from spiritual fornication, including apostasy?
Listen to what the Almightysays as to the matter:
2 Corinthians 6 :: New Living Translation
Therefore, come out from them and separate yourselves from them, says the Lord. Don't touch their filthy things, and I will welcome you.
When Jesus was tempted by Satan what do you think his objective was?
Was it just to see a demonstration ,a display as proof that he was the LORD?
Luke 4
Then the Devil said to him, "If you are the Son of God, change this stone into a loaf of bread."
Jesus was now at His weakest. He had just fasted for forty days. the first temptation involves food. It comes in the form of a challenge, "if thou be," then prove it by doing this or that. you sir may say, this sounded reasonable, after all, Jesus was hungry. This temptation certainly would have appealed to His flesh. What really was at stake here was this: would Jesus be led of the Spirit of God? or would He be led of the devil? Would Jesus follow and obey God? or would He follow and obey the devil? Jesus is the Son of God. He had the power to turn the rocks into bread; however, it needs to be noted, that doing so would not have been the will of the Father, but rather, what Satan desired Him to do. This temptation was also devoted to "self." He was being tempted to satisfy His hunger by using His divine power. The miracles that Jesus later did benefited others, not Himself. Satan wanted Jesus to act independently from His Father. Should Jesus have been disobedient in even the smallest matter
Now what is the purpose of writing books to point out mistakes made by witnesses,is it for financial gain? or is it to prey on the weak,Jude says:
JUDE:NLT
God gave this unchanging truth once for all time to his holy people. I say this because some godless people have wormed their way in among you,
The fate of such people was determined long ago, for they have turned against our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. I must remind you--and you know it well--that even though the Lord rescued the whole nation of Israel from Egypt, he later destroyed every one of those who did not remain faithful.
Yet these false teachers, who claim authority from their dreams
these people mock and curse the things they do not understand. Like animals, they do whatever their instincts tell them, and they bring about their own destruction. How terrible it will be for them! For they follow the evil example of Cain, who killed his brother. Like Balaam, they will do anything for money. And like Korah, they will perish because of their rebellion. When these people join you in fellowship meals celebrating the love of the Lord, they are like dangerous reefs that can SHIPWRECK YOU.
They are shameless in the way they care only about themselves. They are like clouds blowing over dry land without giving rain, promising much but producing nothing. They are like trees without fruit at harvesttime. They are not only dead but doubly dead, for they have been pulled out by the roots. They are like wild waves of the sea, churning up the dirty foam of their shameful deeds. They are wandering stars, heading for everlasting gloom and darkness.
So there it is ,the goal is to "SHIPWRECK" the faith.
Sure Im a Jehovahs Witness Minister Ordained for 30yrs, Appointed ,Confirmed by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York
But Paul Warned'
1 Corinthians 10 AMP
Therefore let anyone who thinks he stands [who feels sure that he has a steadfast mind and is standing firm], take heed lest he fall
Thats the goal to sow seeds of doubt:
James 1 :: Amplified Bible
Only it must be in faith that he asks with no wavering (no hesitating, no doubting). For the one who wavers (hesitates, doubts) is like the billowing surge out at sea that is blown hither and thither and tossed by the wind. For truly, let not such a person imagine that he will receive anything [he asks for] from the Lord, [For being as he is] a man of two minds (hesitating, dubious, irresolute), [he is] unstable and unreliable and uncertain about everything [he thinks, feels, decides].
I hope this sheds light on this subject.
I dont need to put my head into a garbage can to see if it smells,that is what this information is, Garbage... i should not label this stuff garbage, im sorry,
GARBAGE IS OF A MUCH HIGHER STANDARD!!
winternatt
WINTERNATT: Hello MR BABINSKI
ED: Hello Mr. Winternatt.
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WINTERNATT: Im honored sir
ED: No need to be "honored," it's enough that you be "human" and act "humanely" toward others. (I wonder why you say you are "honored" when below you are quite certain that it is wrong to "honor" what you and your religion consider to be "filth" or "garbage." A bit of a tricky deal I'd say. )
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WINTERNATT: to finally engage in dialogue with you. As you know im the one who challenged you several weeks ago to a debate ,which you declined,
ED: You have not told me yet what you are hep on "debating." I have been debating on the internet since the mid-1980s (on the Prodigy network), and in lengthy letters even earlier than that period. When did YOU begin "debating" people on the internet?
Secondly, I prefer humane discussions, tempered by a bit more modesty of prose, rather than engaging in grand and glorious "debates" in which people pull out all the stops and start invoking "God Almighty" at the start, and also start by invoking metaphors like "filthy" and "GARBAGE," as you do below.
I am also declining to get heavily involved in reply to you because I am in touch with as many people as I care to handle right now with my time schedule, including Bob Holdings of Tekton apologetics (Bob would probably have some choice words for you since he's an Evangelical Christian who has just finished a book critiquing Mormonism, check out Bob's website at http://www.tektonics.org/ Bob apparently does Evangelical apologetics full time and you can post questions at his site). I am also in touch with several "Intelligent Design" folks, and with an email list of Christian philosophers, and there are folks who send me individual emails each week. I am also editing four large pieces at home and continuing my research for those pieces. There isn't enough time in a day. My advice to everyone, including yourself, is to engage in discussions with people of widely diverse opinions and likewise read widely. If I don't have the time or interest to debate you, then keep in mind there are thousands of others on the internet who probably do, and who may even have much bigger bones to pick with JWism than I do.
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WINTERNATT: As to the reading" books" by ex-witnesses here is my thoughts bu example. "If, out of curiosity, we were to read the literature of a known "apostate", would that not be the same as inviting this enemy of true worship right into our home to sit down with us and relate his apostate ideas?
ED: Yes, but ironically, if I was to cite those folks at length in emails to you, would that not constitute the same thing, and entail the same "danger" to your soul?
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WINTERNATT: Let us illustrate matters in this way: Suppose your teenage son received some pornographic material in the mail. What would you do? If he was inclined to read it out of curiosity, would you say: `Yes, son, go ahead and read it. It won't hurt you. From infancy we've taught you that immorality is bad. Besides, you need to know what's going on in the world in order to see that it's truly bad'? Absolutely not! Rather, you would surely point out the dangers of reading pornographic literature and would require that it be destroyed. Why? Because no matter how strong a person may be in the truth, if he feeds his mind on the perverted ideas found in such literature, his mind and heart will be effected...Well, if we would act so decisively to protect our children from exposure to pornography, should we not expect that our loving heavenly Father would similarly warn us from spiritual fornication, including apostasy?
ED: That sounds to me like the church's way of keeping you in their particular church, but telling you that God doesn't want you to read non-JW books, and to compare information about your church that is not favorable to the "JW party line" with "pornography."
But think about this, if every one of the 30,000+ denominations and missionary organizations of Christendom worldwide followed that same advice, then the religious population would remain permanently stagnant -- no one or their children ever changing their beliefs. Kind of like what happens in Northern Ireland where the Catholic kids attend private Catholic schools and the Protestants likewise, and each learns in their schools the beauty of their own faith and the errors of the other person's, with very little "inter-religious" dialogue, which consists mainly of shooting each other in the streets or blowing each other up. Kind of like Hindus in India and Muslims in Pakistan, still fighting in Kashmeer. Kind of like Orthodox Christian Serbs and Muslims fighting in the Balkans.
By the way, what if the serpent-handling Christians are the "true" ones? They sound to me like they have more faith than JWs who merely reject blood transfusions. *smile*
WHAT IF SERPENT-HANDLING CHRISTIANS ARE THE “TRUE” ONES AND ALL THE REST ARE “FALSE?”
After I wrote news accounts of the serpent-handling churches, sociologists visited and studied the congregations. One administered a psychological test to the Scrabble Creek flock, and gave the same test to a nearby Methodist congregation as a control group. The serpent-handlers came out mentally healthier.
- James A. Haught, “Adventures in the Bible Belt” (1997), adapted from a Gazette column, Dec. 7, 1993.
____________________________
COMMANDS AND PROMISES OF THE RESURRECTED JESUS:
“THEY SHALL TAKE UP SERPENTS”
And he [Jesus] said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
- Mark 16: 15-20 (KJV)
(Note: Jesus’ words above are not found in the earliest known Markan manuscripts, so scholars have doubts as to their authenticity.)
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THE SIGNS AND WONDERS MINISTRY
[In His Own Words, Joe Robert Elkins] “Lot of people think all we do is handle serpents. We pray for the sick. They’s some sick people that’s healed here. We drink the strychnine. We don’t deny none of the five Signs. We do our best to put all five in action, because He said “these” Signs. We don’t just pick out praying for the sick or speaking in tongues, but all five Signs is going to be made manifest in God’s church. You are either a believer or an unbeliever, and the unbeliever is going to hell. I believe they are going to burn. … The Bible says to pray without ceasing. See, you go with a prayer in your mind all the time, lest you enter in the temptations. Prayer is what keeps the temptation away. When you are approached by the devil, you pray. God moves that thing. He said to resist the devil, and he would flee from you. … God talks to people, if they would just slow down and listen. God talks. I hear Him. He speaks to you through the heart. It is a small, still voice. It is real quiet. It speaks within you. You hear it. … But it ain’t every spirit that talks to you that is God. … People think we are crazy, but it is a wise man who fears the Lord and keeps His Commandments.”
[Introduction] The serpent handlers practice their religion daily in though, word, and deed. When they fail, they suffer, pray, and try harder the next day. Their religion demands a price too high for most of us to pay. Imagine having enough faith to pick up a deadly reptile to confirm God’s Word, knowing that a bite could be crippling or even fatal.
What about the miracles? How can they be explained? We have seen people hold flame in their hands and dance on fire without being burned. We have witnessed believers drinking strychnine with no ill effects and handling poisonous snakes without being bitten. Other miracles are related in this book -- healings, casting out devils baptism by an unseen spirit. Even these stories seem plausible because we believe in the veracity of the people who witnessed such events firsthand. …
[In Her Own Words, Cynthia Church] “This religion is not David Copperfield. It’s not smoke and mirrors and magic. … It makes me angry when people think serpent handlers are ignorant rednecks from Appalachia. They way people talk here is cultural. Just because some of them are uneducated doesn’t mean they are ignorant, but that is the way they are portrayed by most of the press. … Mamaw had the gift of fire. She would pour kerosene on a little white handkerchief -- you know, the kind ladies used to carry -- and she would set it on fire and burn it in her hand. The hankie would burn with fire and smoke, and Mamaw held that fire in her hand for about fifteen minutes while she danced [in the spirit]. Finally, she closed her other hand down over it and put the fire out, and her hand was not even burned, and the handkerchief was not even burned or scorched.”
[In Her Own Words, Linda Turner Coots] “They were handling serpents. My brother-in-law was handling fire. And Joyce leaps up shouting, speaking in tongues, and Greg’s dad, he held up his hand and wanted everybody to listen. And he said, ‘There’s something that just don’t sound right.’ Joyce was speaking in tongues, but it wasn’t God. And when he pointed a finger at her, she just fell on the floor. And then he begin to pray for her, and that devil was talking, and it was saying that Jesus was the devil. And he cast the devil off her. Joyce repented of her sins, but somewhere, that devil took over, and she didn’t know how to resist him. … Hayden, Greg’s dad, prayed for him one night at my mom’s and cast the devil out of him. He told the devil to go into the dog that was outside. And when he done that, the dog howled, made the awfulest, pitiful sound. It went mad a few days after that, and my uncle had to kill it. He had to destroy the dog. … Yeah, I been to a lot of baptizings. I’ve seen the Lord baptize Greg’s dad one Sunday: They was about fifteen people being baptized that Sunday, and he baptized every one of ‘em, and then he was just standing in the water after everybody else walked out, and it was just like something just laid him down in the water and brought him back up. It was beautiful. He never said anything [about that experience]. We watched it. It was amazing. … I just know that the Word of God is the truth. They say that speaking in tongues is evidence of the Holy Ghost, but I believe the real gift of God is eternal life. I wish everybody could see heaven, but they can’t. It’s not for everybody. It’s only for a chosen few. Everybody’s not going to see Him. I have friends who say they’re Christians, but the way I feel about it, they don’t believe in the full Gospel, and they’re not gonna make it. They’re not gonna go where Jesus is. … I just want to make it [to heaven]. Love. That’s the most important thing, to have that love.”
[In His Own Words, Charles Church] “Miracles are performed every day in the church. Ceil’s mother, Barbara, had the gift of fire. She had a great anointing to handle it. She used to dip her hands into a coal stove and carry out hot coals with her hands, and she was never burned. Ceil has that gift too. She says the fire feels cool. Barbara would actually pour kerosene on the floor and set it on fire and dance barefooted in the fire and never be burned. Once, I saw her hold out a sinner man’s tie and put that torch under it, keep it there for five minutes, and it didn’t ever burn. … And when Brother Raford Dunn was bitten in Brother Carl Porter’s church, we took him downstairs, and he was laying on a bed. Lydia was sitting next to him and praying for him, and she said she could actually feel his heart beating. And then she felt it quit beating. We prayed for him down there, and he came back to life.”
[In His Own Words, Dewey Chafin, born 1933] “The first time I ever handled a serpent, the anointing felt just like it does now. It starts in my stomach, the feeling does. It works different in different people, but I get a little feeling right here [in the pit of my stomach], and it just gets bigger and bigger and bigger, and from there on up through my chest and my shoulders. It is a good feeling, a warm feeling. You can feel it. … Over the years I have been bitten 133 times. … Some people don’t understand our religion, but it determines everything I do in life. I don’t drink coffee. I don’t chew gum. I don’t smoke cigarettes, argue, fight, cuss. If you start an argument with me, just start, and I’ll be out of your way in less than a minute. Cussing is definitely a no-no. People take cussing being just one thing, like using God’s name in vain. But cussing is a lot more than that. There are a lot of ways you can cuss without using God’s name in vain.”
The rules of the church hang above the pulpit, their supporting Bible verses listed in parentheses. They read, “Women are not allowed to wear short sleeves, jewelry and makeup (I C 3; I Tim. 2:9); No gossiping (James 1:26); No tale-bearing (Prov. 18:8); No lying (Col. 3:9, Rev. 21:8); no backbiting (Rom. 1:30); No bad language (Col. 3:8); No tobacco users (II Cor. 7:1, I Cor. 3:17). Men are not allowed to have long hair, mustaches or beards (I Cor. 11:14); Men are not allowed to wear short sleeves; Women not allowed to cut hair (I Cor. 11:15); and wear dresses above the knees (Tim. 2:9).” At the bottom of the sign, in parentheses, it says, “Members only,” meaning that visitors are excluded from adhering to these mandates. …
Since his evangelist brother, Punkin, died from snakebite in 1998, Mark Brown is the lone surviving child of one of the best known serpent-handling families in the Southeast. Now Mark is more wary, but not afraid. … He believes that he has a personal mandate from God, told through a prophecy related to him by family friend Cameron Short. “The Lord told me that my hands would do the work of the Signs [and Wonders ministry].”
- Fred Brown and Jeanne McDonald, The Serpent Handlers: Three Families and Their Faith (Winston-Salem, North Carolina: John E. Blair Publisher, 2000)
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WINTERNATT: Listen to what the Almighty says as to the matter:
ED: I have read the Bible, several times in fact, and used to cite similar Scriptures. As to whether it is the "Almighty" speaking in every verse in the Bible, or a human author speaking at least in SOME instances, is a matter of faith that I am afraid you are assuming right off the bat.
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WINTERNATT: 2 Corinthians 6 :: New Living Translation
Therefore, come out from them
and separate yourselves from them, says the Lord.
Don't touch their filthy things,
and I will welcome you.
ED: Again, why are you at this forum if you don't believe in even "touching" anything that is "filthy?"
Secondly, are you even READING this response I've written or would it be "too filthy" to read every one the words I wrote you? You're probably just skimming my replies to see if I have finally "broken down and repented in sack cloth and ashes" as a consequence of being hit with the New Living Translation.
In other words, if you are indeed following the above "teaching of the Almighty" to the strictest "letter" then you probably haven't even read this far and I am wasting time discussing anything with you.
Here's a quotation from the "honorable" stand up comedian and former fundamentalist Baptist, Bill Hicks: "Christianity has a built-in defense system; anything that questions a belief, no matter how logical the argument, is the work of Satan by the very fact that it makes you question a belief. It is a very interesting defense mechanism and the only way to get by it, and believe me I was raised Southern Baptist, is to take heroic doses of mushrooms, sit in a field, and just go, 'Show me.' "
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WINTERNATT: When Jesus was tempted by Satan what do you think his objective was?
ED: How do I know if the story of Jesus' temptation story is true, or totally accurate? Did you know that the story of Zoroaster includes the detail that he too was tempted by the devil in the wilderness? And that was long before Jesus allegedly was tempted by the devil in the wilderness:
As for what happened out there in the desert, it's a story that nobody saw or could attest to, since the story admits that even the apostles weren't there.
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WINTERNATT: Was it just to see a demonstration, a display as proof that he was the LORD?
Luke 4
Then the Devil said to him, "If you are the Son of God, change this stone into a loaf of bread."
Jesus was now at His weakest. He had just fasted for forty days. the first temptation involves food. It comes in the form of a challenge, "if thou be," then prove it by doing this or that. you sir may say, this sounded reasonable, after all, Jesus was hungry. This temptation certainly would have appealed to His flesh. What really was at stake here was this: would Jesus be led of the Spirit of God? or would He be led of the devil? Would Jesus follow and obey God? or would He follow and obey the devil? Jesus is the Son of God. He had the power to turn the rocks into bread; however, it needs to be noted, that doing so would not have been the will of the Father, but rather, what Satan desired Him to do. This temptation was also devoted to "self." He was being tempted to satisfy His hunger by using His divine power. The miracles that Jesus later did benefited others, not Himself. Satan wanted Jesus to act independently from His Father. Should Jesus have been disobedient in even the smallest matter
Now what is the purpose of writing books to point out mistakes made by witnesses,is it for financial gain? or is it to prey on the weak,Jude says:
JUDE:NLT
God gave this unchanging truth once for all time to his holy people. I say this because some godless people have wormed their way in among you,
The fate of such people was determined long ago, for they have turned against our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
I must remind you--and you know it well--that even though the Lord rescued the whole nation of Israel from Egypt, he later destroyed every one of those who did not remain faithful.
Yet these false teachers, who claim authority from their dreams
these people mock and curse the things they do not understand. Like animals, they do whatever their instincts tell them, and they bring about their own destruction. How terrible it will be for them! For they follow the evil example of Cain, who killed his brother. Like Balaam, they will do anything for money. And like Korah, they will perish because of their rebellion. When these people join you in fellowship meals celebrating the love of the Lord, they are like dangerous reefs that can SHIPWRECK YOU.
They are shameless in the way they care only about themselves. They are like clouds blowing over dry land without giving rain, promising much but producing nothing. They are like trees without fruit at harvesttime. They are not only dead but doubly dead, for they have been pulled out by the roots. They are like wild waves of the sea, churning up the dirty foam of their shameful deeds. They are wandering stars, heading for everlasting gloom and darkness.
So there it is ,the goal is to "SHIPWRECK" the faith.
Sure Im a Jehovahs Witness Minister Ordained for 30yrs, Appointed ,Confirmed by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York
But Paul Warned'
1 Corinthians 10 AMP
Therefore let anyone who thinks he stands [who feels sure that he has a steadfast mind and is standing firm], take heed lest he fall
Thats the goal to sow seeds of doubt:
James 1 :: Amplified Bible
Only it must be in faith that he asks with no wavering (no hesitating, no doubting). For the one who wavers (hesitates, doubts) is like the billowing surge out at sea that is blown hither and thither and tossed by the wind. For truly, let not such a person imagine that he will receive anything [he asks for] from the Lord, [For being as he is] a man of two minds (hesitating, dubious, irresolute), [he is] unstable and unreliable and uncertain about everything [he thinks, feels, decides].
I hope this sheds light on this subject.
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ED: You have shed absolute pitch darkness and sermonized till your ministerial heart's content above, and made no sense whatsoever except to point out how afraid you are to
1) think on your own
2) choose to read books of your own choice, and, you are
3) failing to exhibit the faintest trace of natural human curiosity outside of robotically repeating JW church-language and dogmas.
In short, you appear to be exhibiting some prime examples of behavior of someone in a cult.
HOW TO KNOW YOU'RE IN A CULT
http://wellspringretreat.org/thought_reform.html
No one gets up in the morning as says, "Gee, I think I'm going to ruin my life today. I think I'll join a cult, or maybe get into a relationship where I'm in constant fear of my life." We are often asked, "What kind of person joins a cult or gets involved with a psychopath?" Our answer? "We don't know, we never met anyone who joined a cult or who fell in love with a psychopath." We at Wellspring have helped more than 600 people recover from both of these and never once did any of them say, "I knew exactly what I was getting into."
The kinds of groups these people join, and the kinds of people others get involved with, are more loving, dedicated, and exciting than those they have previously experienced. They join because we all need love, purpose, and adventure. People are attracted to groups and relationships that later turn out to be abusive because they are tricked into believing that either the person or group is not harmful or whatever problems it may be known to have can be overcome by dedication and commitment. Deception involves getting the prospect to suspend disbelief temporarily and then control how information is communicated until critical thinking skills become less effective.
Exactly how the critical thinking skills of members can be impaired by these environments has been the subject of study and controversy for nearly fifty years. We owe a debt to the research and the work of pioneers such as Robert Lifton and Margaret Singer for their insights.
The processes of thought reform have been shown to be present in virtually all high-demand group settings and are strongly associated with the loss of personal critical thinking skills and meaningful "informed consent." The following is adapted from Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, by Robert Lifton.
Milieu Control
Control of communication within the group environment resulting in significant degree of isolation from the surrounding society.
When nonmembers are labeled as ignorant, unspiritual, satanic, etc., group members conclude that outsiders have nothing worthwhile to teach them. Thus members are unlikely to look outside the group for information, especially spiritual information. Milieu control includes other techniques to restrict members' contact with the outside world and to be able to make critical, rational judgments about information: overwork, busyness, multiple lengthy meetings, etc. Lifton: "The most basic feature of the thought reform environment, the psychological current upon which all else depends, is the control of human communication. [This includes] not only the individual's communication with the outside..., but also...his communication with himself... [T]hought reform participants may be in doubt as to who is telling what to whom, but the fact that extensive information about everyone is being conveyed to the authorities is always known... Having experienced the impact of what they consider to be an ultimate truth..., they consider it their duty to create an environment containing no more and no less than this 'truth.' [The group member] is deprived of the combination of external information and inner reflection which anyone requires to test the realities of his environment and to maintain a measure of identity separate from it..."
...
There's much more to the above article worth reading
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WINTERNATT: I dont need to put my head into a garbage can to see if it smells,
ED: Citing "smelly" metaphors is not argument. Metaphors prove nothing. Would you consider it an "argument" if I replied, "Actually, I find the doctrines and dogmas and history of the JW religion less than fragrantly scented?"
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WINTERNAT: that is what this information is, Garbage... i should not label this stuff garbage, im sorry, GARBAGE IS OF A MUCH HIGHER STANDARD!!
ED: Your own sentences explain why I feel that I am having more interesting discussions with others and would prefer not wallowing in a den of your "smelly" metaphors.
There are plenty of Evangelical Christian just itching to debate someone like yourself however, at your present level of discursive reasoning. Such Chrisitans even endorse the "God Almighty spoke" approach to the Bible that you do. It would appear that those are the people you should be going after. At least you both speak the same language in that respect.
And when you tire of them, you can read those few books I suggested and go after those JW apostates who once spoke your language more clearly than Evangelical Christians do.
Keep at it and you will learn more as you go along, "contaminating" yourself with so many interactions with folks whose beliefs differ from your own. Perhaps in time, when you tire of demonizing others, you might even begin to gain a glimpse of goodness in people whose only fault happens to be that they disagree with you on matters pertaining to religion and faith.
Best, Ed
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Daniel 12:4 predicts, we live in a time of increasing knowledge. We enjoy being able both to obtain and dispense God's truth so abundantly. " Jesus cautions, "For false christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
And these sign will follow those who believe . . . In My name . . . they will take up serpents . . ."
—Mark 16:17-18
Are they commands for the followers of Christ or promises? In particular, does Jesus say Christians should handle snakes, or does He promise to protect them if they are bitten?
So mr Babinski what is your point?
Between 1936-1973, 35 persons died from poisonous bites,
Was Christ commanding us to perform these practices or promising protection? Many in the church believe, and it may well be, that Christ was speaking only to those God has called to preach the good news of Jehovahs Kingdom. After all, in verse 15, He had said to the eleven remaining disciples, "Go into all the world." Combine this with the fact that we can see examples of the apostles fulfilling these signs in the New Testament and a case can be made for this view.
A snake bit the apostle Paul while he was on the island of Malta, and no harm came to him . However, he did not go looking for the snake in an effort to prove his faith. The snake bit him unexpectedly, in front of others, and God protected him as promised.Through the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were done among the people." It is quite possible that this section of Mark applies to the apostles and perhaps is further limited to their lifetimes, that is, the first century
These spirtual "gifts" ceased when tha last of the apostles died,as fortold at
1 cor 13
love never fail; and whether [there be] prophecies, they shall become useless; whether tongues, they shall cease; whether knowledge, it shall become useless
what was to remain?
and now there remain faith, hope, love -- these three; and the greatest of these [is] love.
Psalm 91 says:
we will "tread upon the lion and the cobra" and that we will "trample underfoot" the "young lion and the serpent"
So we should find a circus with lions and "trample them down too i guess
Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven.
Protection is promised here, not a command to flaunt their God-given authority. He specifically instructs them "not [to] rejoice in this" because it was not of their doing, not a show of faith. It was God's protection pure and simple.
The prophet Isaiah pens words of God similar to these in Isaiah 43:1-3, 5:
Fear not, for I have redeemed you; . . . you are mine. When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned, nor shall the flame scorch you. For I am the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior. . . . Fear not, for I am with you.
Throughout His Word, God has promised us His protection. He is especially watchful over those He has commissioned to carry out His work, as well as all those whom He has called to make a witness for Him. The Bible is full of examples of His power to deliver His servants from life-threatening situations.
However, He does not guarantee to cover our foolishness when we put ourselves into potentially dangerous situations. He abhors being tempted—tested—as if He needs to prove Himself and His power to us. Psalm 78 shows His distaste for the Israelites' constant testing of Him in the wilderness. The last thing He desires is for members of His church to follow their example of unbelief
Faith is not some kind of formula that we can use to manipulate the power of God on our behalf. Biblical faith is a deep continuing relationship with God. True faith centers in God and He is glorified. False faith centers in the individual and puts God to the test and attempts to manipulate Him.
When Jesus says to be "wise as serpents," he is not referring to the manifestation of Satan in the Garden. For all their fearfulness, snakes are really very fragile creatures and are usually cautious in avoiding dangerous situations. Christians could here learn a valuable lesson from the snake. Rather than subjecting one's self to danger, we should "abstain from all appearance of evil" (1 Thessalonians 5:22).
So where do these mislead people get the power to handle "snakes?
is it from Jehovah?
Matt 7:22-23
Not everyone who says to me "Lord, Lord" shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. Many will say to me on that day "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by your name and by your name cast out demons, and by your name do many mighty works?" And I will say to them, "I never knew you. Go away from me, you who work evil." Ann by the way Mark also said this:
Mark 16:17-18
And these signs shall accompany those who believe:
And if they drink any deadly poison, it shall not hurt them.
so we should march down to the hardware store and test GOD
Remember George Town Guyana
As long as we are at where are the Mountain mover groups did jesus say:
Mat 17:20
And Jesus said to them...
if you all have faith even like a grain of mustard seed,
you all shall say to this mountain,
"Move away to another place", and it shall move.
There is "a spirit of truth and a spirit of falsehood" (1 John 4:6). So false teaching will not be confirmed by a true miracle
Jesus followers raised the dead Raising the dead was a special sign of an apostle (Matt. 10: 8; 2 Cor. 12:12).
Matthew 10 infirm ones be healing, lepers be cleansing, dead be raising, demons be casting out -- freely ye did receive, freely give.
And thus subvert the uniqueness of the Christian apologetic. The evidence for the resurrection of Christ would not have been "infallible proofs" . mind you if Satan could do the same miracles God can do, then there would be no supernatural way to discern truth. For Satan could confirm lying prophets to be telling the truth. Likewise, if Satan could give infallible prophecies, the test that a false prophecy is a sign of a false prophet would be ineffective True miracles are truly supernatural; false miracles(snake handling) are, at best, only supernormal. Satanic signs are earmarked by association with evil and falsehood. Supernatural acts are distinguished by good and truth. Nor does Satan have the power to perform a truly supernatural act. His are always deceptions and usually obvious counterfeits to anyone who knows the signs. He is the master magician and a super scientist. But only God can create life and raise the dead. Only God can infallibly predict the future. Only God can instantaneously cure the "incurable." Satan’s power is finite and evil. God’s power is infinite and good, and his supernatural acts give evidence.
Automobile manufacturers test cars for hundreds of thousands of miles to prove their ability to stand up to the rigors of daily driving. Children in school are regularly tested to see if they have learned the things they are supposed to have learned. Every day, lawyers in court rooms across our country examine and cross-examine witnesses to try to determine if they are telling the truth or not.
In Exodus chapters 15-17 the Israelites continually questioned God's provision of their needs. Psalm 78:19 quotes them as saying "Can God spread a table in the desert?" Does God care about our needs? Does God have the power to provide us with a banquet in the desert?
Promise of protection is not there so that we can take unnecessary risks. God's rescuing power is not something to be experimented with. We don't allow a rattlesnake to bite us just so we can see if our new anti-venom kit works. We don't frivolously run up huge bills then expect God to miraculously pay them off when we win the Publishers Clearing House Sweepstakes. We don't sleep in late then ask God's protection as we drive like a maniac on our way to work.
The guard rail is like a promise of God. It is there to protect us from unusual danger and calm our fears–but we don't try to prove the strength of it by ramming the guard rail at high speed. The protection the guard rail affords is only for the posted speed limit. If we break the law we are no longer protected. Actually, we are to drive so as to miss the guard rail and never need its protection. God expects us to obey the speed limit and steer the car within the limits of the roadway. The rail is there in the event of a tire blow-out ,but it is not to be tested needlessly or recklessly,like snake handling.
winternatt!!
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WINTERNATT: Daniel 12:4 predicts, we live in a time of increasing knowledge.
ED: "Daniel predicts!?" Ed predicts that your knowledge of the Bible is never going to increase a whit, not ever, since you keep scrupulously away from a broader knowlege of history and the questions it raises. Historians know their answers are not absolute, even literary critics know their interpretations of an author's work is never necessarily complete. Ah, but you know God's own mind and predictions enough to sermonize about them incessantly. (I bet you bore even yourself, Mr. Winternatt.)
I am not going to keep this ping pong up with you, since replying to your sermons just inspires you to sermonize all the more and claim that the Bible commands you to sermonize about it (preach in season and out of season), and the Bible predicts that people who don't listen to you are damned to hell. So you're locked up pretty tightly in your full armor of Christ, flaying away with your sword of the spirit, and there isn't a ray of "increasing knowledge" that can penetrate your self-protective armor of JW faith. (Whether that is something to be intellectually proud of is another question.)
Even so, let me try to impart a bit of knowledge to you, increase a bit of your knowledge:
Daniel predicts nothing. Go study the full breadth of historical scholarship regarding the book of Daniel, especially some of the world's foremost Daniel scholars like John Joseph Collins or J.J.Collins (google his name along with Daniel or check amazon.com listings for that author). At most, the book of Daniel's predictions ended in the days of the Maccabean revolt against the Selucid rulers of Palestine about 200 years before the days of Jesus. That was the time when the book was supposedly "unsealed" (after being sealed since the days of the alleged "Daniel"). So Daniel is an apocryphal work that was found or appeared for the first time about 200 years before Jesus lived. Also found around that same time was the earliest installment of the Book of Enoch, attributed to "Enoch, the seventh from Adam." Both books by the way, agree that the earth is flat. The author of the book of Daniel assumes that Daniel has a dream of a flat earth, and nobody questions it:
I saw a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great. The tree grew, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth.
- Daniel 4:10-11
Compare:
The devil took him [Jesus] up into an exceedingly high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them.
- Matthew 4:8
Shown “all the kingdoms of the world” from an “exceedingly high mountain?” I suppose so, if the mountain was “exceedingly high” and the earth was flat. Verses in the Bible’s book of Daniel presume a flat earth the same way that verses in Matthew do, but instead of an “exceedingly high” mountain from which “all the kingdoms of the earth” can be seen, Daniel pictures a tree “whose height was great,” growing from the “midst” or center of the earth and “seen” to “the ends of all the earth.”
Funny how such flagrantly flat-earth verses appear in both the Old and New Testaments, as well as in the book of Enoch that was written between the Old and New Testaments. “Bible believers” will of course reply that such verses are only “apparently difficult” to explain, and not the “real truth” as they see it. But it is the “apparent difficulties” that remain in the Bible, as it was written, and they will always remain there, regardless of all the ingenuity employed in explaining them away.
As for Daniel's prediction that knowledge would increase, even ancient Assyrians living 2800 YEARS AGO, made similar predictions:
"There are signs that the world is speedily coming to an end: Bribery and corruption are common. Children no longer obey their parents, and everyone is writing a book."
- Message found on a clay table from Assyria, written approximately 2800 B.C.
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WINTERNATT: We enjoy being able both to obtain and dispense God's truth so abundantly. " Jesus cautions, "For false christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
ED: Deception is one thing, but RECEPTION of knowledge is another. And you sorely lack the latter. Your faith has made you an addict of mediocrity, mediocre scholarship, mediocre thoughts (mere Biblical mimicry), mediocre humor, etc.
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And these sign will follow those who believe . . . In My name . . . they will take up serpents . . ."
—Mark 16:17-18
Are they commands for the followers of Christ or promises? In particular, does Jesus say Christians should handle snakes, or does He promise to protect them if they are bitten?
So mr Babinski what is your point?
ED: My point is that those serpent handling folks have a faith that rivals that of JW's who deny themselves blood transfusions after traumatic blood loss. And in both cases, people die, and each of their private worlds of faith continue on, usually as if nothing happened. It was just "their time to go" all part of "God's plan." Of course there is a difference between serpent handlers and JWs I forgot to mention. Serpent handlers don't usually let their children handle serpent or drink poison, it's only the older believers who do so, and only when they are certain that they feel anointed to do so. While in contrast, JW's will train even their children to refuse blood transfusions, leading to death after death. Of course your brain was too mediocre to get the point, must be your helmet of faith is on too tight.
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WINTERNATT:
These spirtual "gifts" ceased when tha last of the apostles died,as fortold at 1 cor 13
ED: Your understanding and interpretation of 1 Cor. 13 is as mediocre as the rest of what you have written. Paul wrote IN CONTEXT:
1 Cor. 13:8 "Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. "
[Paul does not say WHEN such spiritual gifts would cease. Though Paul does expect Jesus to return soon, and "meet him in the air." Your church obviously interprets "when perfection comes" as a specific point in past history. But again, Paul is nowhere near as specific as would be necessary to claim that you had nailed a definitive interpretation down. Personally, I believe Paul is referring to meeting Jesus face to face, the parousia. That's when Paul would "know fully, as he is fully known," for instance, read the verses that follow. -- E.T.B.]
1 Cor. 13:11 "When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."
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WINTERNATT: /snip/ So where do these mislead people get the power to handle "snakes?
ED: And where do JWs get the "power" to renounce blood transfusions, even for their own children? Stop your jabbering preacher's lips long enough to think about the power that churchs have over people, social constructs, group peer pressure.
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WINTERNATT:
is it from Jehovah?
ED: Since you claim to speak for Jehovah, everything you say is allegedly "from Jehovah," and must be right. Nice vicious little circle of reasoning there.
Hey, here's a verse for you,
"Wisdom begins where the fear of God ends."
Maybe you'll learn some wisdom some day when you lose your fear that just speaking WITH people (instead of PREACHING TO them) isn't necessarily a "sin."
Please go read more widely, or find someone who shares your Biblical assumptions and wishes to puruse matters of doctrine with you.
Signing off,
Ed
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